Discussion:
When shady people resell your work...
Dino Termini
2014-04-08 16:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi list,

we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin (available
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.

While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.

On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled them
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that
you cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.

This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat,
which is sad.

So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.

Thank you,
Dino.
Chloé Desoutter
2014-04-08 17:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dino,

Maybe the best option would be to get in touch with the FSF for such
issues. They would provide good counseling and advises.

Anyway, thanks for telling us.

Yours sincerely
Post by Dino Termini
Hi list,
we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin (available
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled them
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that you
cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.
This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat, which
is sad.
So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.
Thank you,
Dino.
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
Madalin Ignisca
2014-04-08 17:21:26 UTC
Permalink
FSF will not do anything about it, maybe a mention not do develop on GPL2
if you don't like that. Other licenses open source are protecting authors,
but that means developing on other platforms.


On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Chloé Desoutter <
Post by Chloé Desoutter
Hi Dino,
Maybe the best option would be to get in touch with the FSF for such
issues. They would provide good counseling and advises.
Anyway, thanks for telling us.
Yours sincerely
Post by Dino Termini
Hi list,
we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin (available
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled them
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that
you
Post by Dino Termini
cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.
This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat, which
is sad.
So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.
Thank you,
Dino.
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
--
*Madalin Ignisca*
*web developer*
http://imadalin.ro/
Chip Bennett
2014-04-08 17:28:34 UTC
Permalink
"...even if our license agreement explicitly says that you cannot include
any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package"

So your commercial WordPress Plugin add-ons - add-ons for a Plugin hosted
by WPORG, and that are promoted on
WPORG<https://wordpress.org/plugins/wp-slimstat/>- are not distributed
under GPL?
Post by Dino Termini
Hi list,
we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin (available
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled them
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that you
cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.
This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat, which
is sad.
So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.
Thank you,
Dino.
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
Dino Termini
2014-04-09 00:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Have you ever heard of Easy Digital Downloads or CodeCanyon? :) We
basically use the same business model, which seems to be in compliance
with the whole GPL/WP business. Am I wrong?
Post by Chip Bennett
"...even if our license agreement explicitly says that you cannot include
any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package"
So your commercial WordPress Plugin add-ons - add-ons for a Plugin hosted
by WPORG, and that are promoted on
WPORG<https://wordpress.org/plugins/wp-slimstat/>- are not distributed
under GPL?
Otto
2014-04-08 17:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dino Termini
Hi list,
we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin (available
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled them
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that you
cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.
This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat, which
is sad.
So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.
Thank you,
Dino.
The licensing you use really has nothing to do with it. They would violate
your license even if it was more restrictive or less restrictive. People
pirate games and business software and such too, right? This is really no
different.

The long and the short of it is that you're basically dealing with the
problem of software piracy. There is no solution. There isn't going to be a
solution. At most, you can call a lawyer and sue the offenders for damages,
which is difficult to prove at best. And even then, you probably won't get
any real money out of it.

In the long run, I think that the only way to really cope with this sort of
issue is to sell something else; something which is not software.

If you have never read it, give The Magic Cauldron a read. I like Chapter 3.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html

-Otto
Blair Williams
2014-04-08 17:39:21 UTC
Permalink
We've had do deal with this on our plugins as well. The best way we've
found to deal with it is to develop hosted services that work in
conjunction with your plugin ... the most direct of which is support and
updates that are only available to paying customers.

Blair
Post by Otto
Post by Dino Termini
Hi list,
we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin (available
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled them
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that
you
Post by Dino Termini
cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.
This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat, which
is sad.
So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.
Thank you,
Dino.
The licensing you use really has nothing to do with it. They would violate
your license even if it was more restrictive or less restrictive. People
pirate games and business software and such too, right? This is really no
different.
The long and the short of it is that you're basically dealing with the
problem of software piracy. There is no solution. There isn't going to be a
solution. At most, you can call a lawyer and sue the offenders for damages,
which is difficult to prove at best. And even then, you probably won't get
any real money out of it.
In the long run, I think that the only way to really cope with this sort of
issue is to sell something else; something which is not software.
If you have never read it, give The Magic Cauldron a read. I like Chapter 3.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html
-Otto
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
Chris McCoy
2014-04-08 18:04:03 UTC
Permalink
that¹s a good method, how it updates for example pretty link lite to pro
from the backend.
Post by Blair Williams
We've had do deal with this on our plugins as well. The best way we've
found to deal with it is to develop hosted services that work in
conjunction with your plugin ... the most direct of which is support and
updates that are only available to paying customers.
Blair
Post by Dino Termini
Post by Dino Termini
Hi list,
we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin
(available
Post by Dino Termini
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as
Keyword
Post by Dino Termini
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled
them
Post by Dino Termini
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that
you
Post by Dino Termini
cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.
This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat,
which
Post by Dino Termini
is sad.
So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.
Thank you,
Dino.
The licensing you use really has nothing to do with it. They would violate
your license even if it was more restrictive or less restrictive. People
pirate games and business software and such too, right? This is really no
different.
The long and the short of it is that you're basically dealing with the
problem of software piracy. There is no solution. There isn't going to be a
solution. At most, you can call a lawyer and sue the offenders for damages,
which is difficult to prove at best. And even then, you probably won't get
any real money out of it.
In the long run, I think that the only way to really cope with this sort of
issue is to sell something else; something which is not software.
If you have never read it, give The Magic Cauldron a read. I like
Chapter
3.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html
-Otto
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
Brian Fegter
2014-04-08 20:38:46 UTC
Permalink
The best thing you can do, in my opinion, is to keep making a great product
and forge ahead. Users have bought into the value of your software and
direction it is going. When someone forks your software maliciously, that
fork rarely if ever runs parallel to your original vision and passion for
making that software. It will, in time, divert from the origin intention of
the first developer or team. A good fork is when software diverts from its
original intent and value, and a course correction needs to be made or
there can be added value in another direction. A bad fork almost always
leaves the users out in no man's land.

At the end of the day, you are the one who had the idea, you've own it, and
will continue to have a passion for it. Someone who comes in and copies
your work won't have the same passion, vision and forethought for roadmap,
they are there for a quick buck. They most likely don't understand the
software as thoroughly as you do as well. When support requests begin to
pour in (and they will as they do for all WP plugins), upgrades need to
happen, etc..., they will buckle at some point and abandon the software. If
you stay true to your principles, give your users security that you aren't
going anywhere, they most likely will stick with you. The ones that abandon
you will come back at some point when they see the other is just a fraud.

Knockoffs are never quality anywhere you look. Those who steal ideas always
cut corners and make a substandard product. It might look like your product
now, but it won't in the future. Make your's even more awesome to get ahead
of their 'fork'. Dig in and refactor your codebase if need be so they can't
just plug and play with your updates. Offering a quality product, excellent
support, and a great vision the future of the product will pay off. My two
cents. :)
Post by Otto
Post by Dino Termini
Hi list,
we were recently informed that someone was selling our plugin (available
for free on WordPress.org of course), WP SlimStat.
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
On top of that, they purchased all our premium add-ons and bundled them
with their package, even if our license agreement explicitly says that
you
Post by Dino Termini
cannot include any of our premium add-ons
within a free or commercial theme or plugin or other package.
This will end up damaging not just our small group, but the entire
community around our plugin. If the already little revenue stream is
choked, we won't be able to invest our time to improve WP SlimStat, which
is sad.
So I thought I would come to this list to ask for opinions.
Thank you,
Dino.
The licensing you use really has nothing to do with it. They would violate
your license even if it was more restrictive or less restrictive. People
pirate games and business software and such too, right? This is really no
different.
The long and the short of it is that you're basically dealing with the
problem of software piracy. There is no solution. There isn't going to be a
solution. At most, you can call a lawyer and sue the offenders for damages,
which is difficult to prove at best. And even then, you probably won't get
any real money out of it.
In the long run, I think that the only way to really cope with this sort of
issue is to sell something else; something which is not software.
If you have never read it, give The Magic Cauldron a read. I like Chapter 3.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html
-Otto
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
David Anderson
2014-04-09 12:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Have you ever heard of Easy Digital Downloads or CodeCanyon? We
basically use the same business model, which seems to be in compliance
with the whole GPL/WP business. Am I wrong?
Ultimately, all legal questions are resolved by lawyers and by court
cases. Up until that point, nothing more than hot air exists. I like to
do a bit of armchair punditry as much as anyone... but none of it
changes the game being played on the pitch.

I say this as someone with every sympathy. Regardless of GPL issues (and
all my WordPress products are 100% GPL, whether free or commercial),
some people will see an opportunity to leech money from your hard work,
and you need a strategy for that that is more than "tell them they're
not allowed to". That's an overly optimistic strategy on this side of
the end of the world.

In my view, the two main safeguards are a) continuous innovation b) top
quality support. If you keep doing these, then the amount of new
customers, and the purchases of happy repeat customers, will offset your
losses to the leeches.

Best wishes,
David
--
UpdraftPlus - best WordPress backups - http://updraftplus.com
WordShell - WordPress fast from the CLI - http://wordshell.net
Have you ever heard of Easy Digital Downloads or CodeCanyon? We
basically use the same business model, which seems to be in compliance
with the whole GPL/WP business. Am I wrong?
Chloé Desoutter
2014-04-09 12:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Is it allowed by the license to remove the original (Dino's) copyright
notice and replace it with their own? Is it allowed to deprive their
customers of their own right to redistribute?
Have you ever heard of Easy Digital Downloads or CodeCanyon? We
Post by Dino Termini
basically use the same business model, which seems to be in compliance
with the whole GPL/WP business. Am I wrong?
Ultimately, all legal questions are resolved by lawyers and by court
cases. Up until that point, nothing more than hot air exists. I like to do
a bit of armchair punditry as much as anyone... but none of it changes the
game being played on the pitch.
I say this as someone with every sympathy. Regardless of GPL issues (and
all my WordPress products are 100% GPL, whether free or commercial), some
people will see an opportunity to leech money from your hard work, and you
need a strategy for that that is more than "tell them they're not allowed
to". That's an overly optimistic strategy on this side of the end of the
world.
In my view, the two main safeguards are a) continuous innovation b) top
quality support. If you keep doing these, then the amount of new customers,
and the purchases of happy repeat customers, will offset your losses to the
leeches.
Best wishes,
David
--
UpdraftPlus - best WordPress backups - http://updraftplus.com
WordShell - WordPress fast from the CLI - http://wordshell.net
Have you ever heard of Easy Digital Downloads or CodeCanyon? We
Post by Dino Termini
basically use the same business model, which seems to be in compliance
with the whole GPL/WP business. Am I wrong?
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
Ryan McCue
2014-04-09 12:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dino Termini
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
If they remove attribution, they're in violation of the license, so
their license is void.

If this is the case, here's what I'd do:

1. Send them a DMCA request
2. If they don't respond, send their host a DMCA request directly
3. If *they* don't respond, send their registrar a DMCA request (they
probably won't do anything, but might contact the host and tell them to
respond)
4. If nothing has happened still, send Google/etc DMCA requests to get
them removed from search results

----

DMCA is the most powerful tool you have, but it only applies if they've
removed attribution. If they add attribution, unless there are other
license violations, you can't use the DMCA.

Also note: If your premium add-ons contain copyrighted resources (not
PHP, since that's covered by the GPL; images or CSS aren't automatically
though), you can also use that.
--
Ryan McCue
<http://ryanmccue.info/>
Dino Termini
2014-04-09 20:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Thank you all for your messages. We're looking into all the options
mentioned on the list. We'll probably also display a message within the
plugin's admin screens to explain what is happening, so that users can
go get their refund from those guys ;)

Best,
Dino
Post by Ryan McCue
Post by Dino Termini
While this is allowed by the GPL license, they re-branded it as Keyword
Swarm and removed all the references to the original author.
If they remove attribution, they're in violation of the license, so
their license is void.
1. Send them a DMCA request
2. If they don't respond, send their host a DMCA request directly
3. If *they* don't respond, send their registrar a DMCA request (they
probably won't do anything, but might contact the host and tell them to
respond)
4. If nothing has happened still, send Google/etc DMCA requests to get
them removed from search results
----
DMCA is the most powerful tool you have, but it only applies if they've
removed attribution. If they add attribution, unless there are other
license violations, you can't use the DMCA.
Also note: If your premium add-ons contain copyrighted resources (not
PHP, since that's covered by the GPL; images or CSS aren't automatically
though), you can also use that.
Dino Termini
2014-04-22 02:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi all, just a quick update on this issue, for those who might want to
go through the same process.

As suggested, we sent a few DMCA Takedown Notices to all the services
involved.

Once Mr. Blagodarskly (the guy who's selling our plugin) got a copy of
those notices, he replied with a counter notice affidavit.

Apparently, if he does that, our only option would be to seek "a court
order to restrain the subscriber from engaging in infringing activity
relating to the material on the service provider's system or network".

Oh well...

Dino.
Post by Ryan McCue
If they remove attribution, they're in violation of the license, so
their license is void.
1. Send them a DMCA request
2. If they don't respond, send their host a DMCA request directly
3. If *they* don't respond, send their registrar a DMCA request (they
probably won't do anything, but might contact the host and tell them to
respond)
4. If nothing has happened still, send Google/etc DMCA requests to get
them removed from search results
----
DMCA is the most powerful tool you have, but it only applies if they've
removed attribution. If they add attribution, unless there are other
license violations, you can't use the DMCA.
Also note: If your premium add-ons contain copyrighted resources (not
PHP, since that's covered by the GPL; images or CSS aren't automatically
though), you can also use that.
Daniel
2014-04-22 02:49:15 UTC
Permalink
So are you going to take it further? That would be a good lesson to teach
Regards,
Daniel Fenn
Hi all, just a quick update on this issue, for those who might want to go
through the same process.
As suggested, we sent a few DMCA Takedown Notices to all the services
involved.
Once Mr. Blagodarskly (the guy who's selling our plugin) got a copy of those
notices, he replied with a counter notice affidavit.
Apparently, if he does that, our only option would be to seek "a court order
to restrain the subscriber from engaging in infringing activity relating to
the material on the service provider's system or network".
Oh well...
Dino.
Post by Ryan McCue
If they remove attribution, they're in violation of the license, so
their license is void.
1. Send them a DMCA request
2. If they don't respond, send their host a DMCA request directly
3. If *they* don't respond, send their registrar a DMCA request (they
probably won't do anything, but might contact the host and tell them to
respond)
4. If nothing has happened still, send Google/etc DMCA requests to get
them removed from search results
----
DMCA is the most powerful tool you have, but it only applies if they've
removed attribution. If they add attribution, unless there are other
license violations, you can't use the DMCA.
Also note: If your premium add-ons contain copyrighted resources (not
PHP, since that's covered by the GPL; images or CSS aren't automatically
though), you can also use that.
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
James Currie
2014-04-22 03:34:25 UTC
Permalink
That's crap. If he's ripping off your work and selling it, and counting
on you not being willing/able to put in the resources to fight for your
proper rights that not only screws you, it sets a bad precedent for all
of the rest of us.

If you want to set up a fund to take contributions to go after this guy
I'll be the first to pony up a bit. I've benefited immensely from the
amazing community around WP and I'd hate to see people like this start
to put a damper on everyone's willingness to share their knowledge,
experience and code.

Jamie

------ Original Message ------
From: "Daniel" <***@gmail.com>
To: "wp-hackers" <wp-***@lists.automattic.com>
Sent: 4/21/2014 7:49:15 PM
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] When shady people resell your work...
Post by Daniel
So are you going to take it further? That would be a good lesson to teach
Regards,
Daniel Fenn
Hi all, just a quick update on this issue, for those who might want to go
through the same process.
As suggested, we sent a few DMCA Takedown Notices to all the services
involved.
Once Mr. Blagodarskly (the guy who's selling our plugin) got a copy of those
notices, he replied with a counter notice affidavit.
Apparently, if he does that, our only option would be to seek "a court order
to restrain the subscriber from engaging in infringing activity relating to
the material on the service provider's system or network".
Oh well...
Dino.
Post by Ryan McCue
If they remove attribution, they're in violation of the license, so
their license is void.
1. Send them a DMCA request
2. If they don't respond, send their host a DMCA request directly
3. If *they* don't respond, send their registrar a DMCA request (they
probably won't do anything, but might contact the host and tell them to
respond)
4. If nothing has happened still, send Google/etc DMCA requests to get
them removed from search results
----
DMCA is the most powerful tool you have, but it only applies if they've
removed attribution. If they add attribution, unless there are other
license violations, you can't use the DMCA.
Also note: If your premium add-ons contain copyrighted resources (not
PHP, since that's covered by the GPL; images or CSS aren't
automatically
though), you can also use that.
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
_______________________________________________
wp-hackers mailing list
http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
Casey Bisson
2014-04-22 03:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Dino,

I don’t have any direct experience with this, but the http://www.fsf.org/ and http://www.gnu.org/ might be able to offer advice on this matter, if not actually be able to help connect you with a lawyer who can help act on the matter.

Sadly, their GPL violation page is really vague http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html , and I don’t think they’ve got deep pockets, but worth a try. I say this because it’s likely important for the organization to establish and support legal precedence for license enforcement, so cases like this may be of interest.

—Casey
That's crap. If he's ripping off your work and selling it, and counting on you not being willing/able to put in the resources to fight for your proper rights that not only screws you, it sets a bad precedent for all of the rest of us.
If you want to set up a fund to take contributions to go after this guy I'll be the first to pony up a bit. I've benefited immensely from the amazing community around WP and I'd hate to see people like this start to put a damper on everyone's willingness to share their knowledge, experience and code.
Jamie
------ Original Message ------
Sent: 4/21/2014 7:49:15 PM
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] When shady people resell your work...
Post by Daniel
So are you going to take it further? That would be a good lesson to teach
Regards,
Daniel Fenn
Hi all, just a quick update on this issue, for those who might want to go
through the same process.
As suggested, we sent a few DMCA Takedown Notices to all the services
involved.
Once Mr. Blagodarskly (the guy who's selling our plugin) got a copy of those
notices, he replied with a counter notice affidavit.
Apparently, if he does that, our only option would be to seek "a court order
to restrain the subscriber from engaging in infringing activity relating to
the material on the service provider's system or network".
Oh well...
Dino.
Post by Ryan McCue
If they remove attribution, they're in violation of the license, so
their license is void.
1. Send them a DMCA request
2. If they don't respond, send their host a DMCA request directly
3. If *they* don't respond, send their registrar a DMCA request (they
probably won't do anything, but might contact the host and tell them to
respond)
4. If nothing has happened still, send Google/etc DMCA requests to get
them removed from search results
----
DMCA is the most powerful tool you have, but it only applies if they've
removed attribution. If they add attribution, unless there are other
license violations, you can't use the DMCA.
Also note: If your premium add-ons contain copyrighted resources (not
PHP, since that's covered by the GPL; images or CSS aren't automatically
though), you can also use that.
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